# QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

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## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

Apply for CIA s soonest. Those that dont will not be happy with the replacement.

**Guest**- Guest

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

absolutely correct sailor . apply apply apply . do this yesterday . it looks like most future vets are going to get fracked by these changes . DONT GET FRACKED at least any more than you already have . get er done .

propat

propat

**propat****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 296

Location : nb canada

Registration date : 2017-12-06

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

I have tried numerous times to understand the Pension For Life ( PFL ) example of the Veteran who has already received a Disability Award and I cannot figure how that example makes sense. The Vet was 100% awarded in 2006 and he was 32 yrs old. He has so far received 297,000 award payout. In 2019 when PFL takes effect he will be 45 yrs. His life expectancy is 84 yrs ( Gov Estimate ) so he is expected to live for 39 more years. The example states he will receive 118,000 as an extra award for pain and suffering. THE EXAMPLE THEN STATES THAT THIS VET WILL RECEIVE 880.00 A MONTH FOR LIFE. This is 880.00 a month or 880,00 x 12 = 10560 a year. If this vet lives 39 more years he will receive 39 x 10560 = 411,840 dollars . This amount is a long way from the 118,000 that the example shows. Is this example out of wack or am I missing something. Is there any math whizs who can confirm of explain this example.

**Bigbrook****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 26

Location : Nova Scotia

Registration date : 2017-03-03

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

I'm with you!

how about a 60% vet who received 20% in each 2010 2012 2014.

how about a 60% vet who received 20% in each 2010 2012 2014.

**Vet1234****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 588

Location : Ontario

Registration date : 2016-07-27

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

Yes I agree . An example of a vet with your circumstances would be very interesting. Also, that kind of example would more closely represent a far greater number of vets than the example they gave. Does anyone know how we could get DVA to publish a different example

**Bigbrook****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 26

Location : Nova Scotia

Registration date : 2017-03-03

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

Well what you need to do is actually figure out the math which I got close.. so here's what it is in my view, I did another post somewhere else, but as per your example..

@100% he received $297K

Under new PFL he'd receive $1150 a month as max right

But they back date it or retro to date of Award, so now we go back to 2006 so from April 2019 Back to 2006 per say is 13 year's.

so now we take 13 year's, x 12 months = 156 months x's $1150 = $179400

Since he was paid or received $297000 it seems that he was OVER PAID, so they take the $179000

what he would of gotten from the $297000 he received, which leaves $117600 so that takes us to date April 2019

Now, from Current to he is 84 as you state is 39 year's.

So 39x12=468 Months

468 months x $1150 $538200

But now we have to Take back that extra $117600 from which he had received from the Award.

So now $538200 - $117600 = $420600

Now if you take that amount the $420600 and divide that by number of months remaining till 84 so

$420600 divided by 468 months = $898.71 which he'll get per month till he hits 84

Now why are my numbers off, well cause I am using equal number of month instead of actual number

Like if he got his award in 2006, that would mean like only 6 months, since the NVC didn't come in till June, now to his 84 Birthday it could be only 2 months in that year, so since I don't have exact numbers, I can only guestimate

but my numbers come up pretty close.

NB

Now had he received less in award I guess the other way, rather then subtraction they'd add so not a -$117600 per say, it'd be +$60K and that would get added on So my example instead of $538K - $117 it would be like $538K + $60k

As per multiple claims, you need to do them separately up to 2019 then from 2019 you can use the 1 amount

so 100% gets $1150 makes 20% $230 a month

so from date of award 2010 x's number of months till April 2019 x's the monthly amount

same for next ones.

Add them up and find the difference between totals, received and should have

then from April 2019, you can use the total % going forward, so if you have a 20/10/10 awards going forward

you'd be looking at 40% so 40% = $460 a month - any difference from awarded and received

@100% he received $297K

Under new PFL he'd receive $1150 a month as max right

But they back date it or retro to date of Award, so now we go back to 2006 so from April 2019 Back to 2006 per say is 13 year's.

so now we take 13 year's, x 12 months = 156 months x's $1150 = $179400

Since he was paid or received $297000 it seems that he was OVER PAID, so they take the $179000

what he would of gotten from the $297000 he received, which leaves $117600 so that takes us to date April 2019

Now, from Current to he is 84 as you state is 39 year's.

So 39x12=468 Months

468 months x $1150 $538200

But now we have to Take back that extra $117600 from which he had received from the Award.

So now $538200 - $117600 = $420600

Now if you take that amount the $420600 and divide that by number of months remaining till 84 so

$420600 divided by 468 months = $898.71 which he'll get per month till he hits 84

Now why are my numbers off, well cause I am using equal number of month instead of actual number

Like if he got his award in 2006, that would mean like only 6 months, since the NVC didn't come in till June, now to his 84 Birthday it could be only 2 months in that year, so since I don't have exact numbers, I can only guestimate

but my numbers come up pretty close.

NB

Now had he received less in award I guess the other way, rather then subtraction they'd add so not a -$117600 per say, it'd be +$60K and that would get added on So my example instead of $538K - $117 it would be like $538K + $60k

As per multiple claims, you need to do them separately up to 2019 then from 2019 you can use the 1 amount

so 100% gets $1150 makes 20% $230 a month

so from date of award 2010 x's number of months till April 2019 x's the monthly amount

same for next ones.

Add them up and find the difference between totals, received and should have

then from April 2019, you can use the total % going forward, so if you have a 20/10/10 awards going forward

you'd be looking at 40% so 40% = $460 a month - any difference from awarded and received

**BinRat****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 286

Location : Komoka

Registration date : 2008-09-18

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

So using your Year's vet, and amounts see if I can figure it out.. for 2010/12/14 and basing 20% shouldn't be to bad.

so in 2010 your received award amount of 20% should of been $63929.86

Since I dont know which month it was given in so say June.

From June 2010 till April 2019 we have 106 months x $230.00 = $24380

So we take that and subtract ir from the $63K we get $39549.86 over

Now 2nd in 2012

so June again I can remove 24 months from 106 we get 82 months $66902.15

so 82 months x $230 = $18860 - $66902.15 we get $4804215

3rd in 2014

so now 58 months x $230 = $13340 Award $68767.45 now $55427.45

So now lets add them together

1st amount received = $186259.46 total in awards

Under PFL received $56580

$129679.46 OVER

So from April 2019 to 84 years old so40 years or 468 months @60% or $690

we get $322920 now subtract the over amount $129679.46 now remains $193241

we look at dividing that by remaining months.. of 468 will give you

an monthly pension of $412.90

Now as I have shown this is for someone who is 32 year's old how will it change

if you are older

Now I looked at someone who is 54 the earlier amounts don't change.

so we have 54 year old, so 30 year's or 360 months x $690 is $248400

Subtract our overage we have $118720.54

and divide 360 months or 30 years. we now get $329.77 a month

now I thought maybe try the other way of doing it and I get same answer

2010 @$230 a month, 2010 x 24 months gets $5520

2012 @$460 a month x 24 months to 2014 you get $11040

now 2014 @ $690 a month till April 2019 58 months $40020

and add them up you still get $56580 - $186259 you received in Awards total

$129679 more in DA then monthly payments

going forward you have 30 year's 360 months x $690 $248400

then - your overage ($129679)per say $118721

and divide that by 360 months $329 amonths

so in 2010 your received award amount of 20% should of been $63929.86

Since I dont know which month it was given in so say June.

From June 2010 till April 2019 we have 106 months x $230.00 = $24380

So we take that and subtract ir from the $63K we get $39549.86 over

Now 2nd in 2012

so June again I can remove 24 months from 106 we get 82 months $66902.15

so 82 months x $230 = $18860 - $66902.15 we get $4804215

3rd in 2014

so now 58 months x $230 = $13340 Award $68767.45 now $55427.45

So now lets add them together

1st amount received = $186259.46 total in awards

Under PFL received $56580

$129679.46 OVER

So from April 2019 to 84 years old so40 years or 468 months @60% or $690

we get $322920 now subtract the over amount $129679.46 now remains $193241

we look at dividing that by remaining months.. of 468 will give you

an monthly pension of $412.90

Now as I have shown this is for someone who is 32 year's old how will it change

if you are older

Now I looked at someone who is 54 the earlier amounts don't change.

so we have 54 year old, so 30 year's or 360 months x $690 is $248400

Subtract our overage we have $118720.54

and divide 360 months or 30 years. we now get $329.77 a month

now I thought maybe try the other way of doing it and I get same answer

2010 @$230 a month, 2010 x 24 months gets $5520

2012 @$460 a month x 24 months to 2014 you get $11040

now 2014 @ $690 a month till April 2019 58 months $40020

and add them up you still get $56580 - $186259 you received in Awards total

$129679 more in DA then monthly payments

going forward you have 30 year's 360 months x $690 $248400

then - your overage ($129679)per say $118721

and divide that by 360 months $329 amonths

**BinRat****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 286

Location : Komoka

Registration date : 2008-09-18

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

Thanks Binrat great break down . This explains it much better

**Bigbrook****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 26

Location : Nova Scotia

Registration date : 2017-03-03

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

Your welcome..

the one reason they take back or clawback that overage one received from the extended calculation

is otherwise, they'd be going okay you now have a $129679 over payment, but by using it to reduce

the total from the time you turn 84, your still paying it, cause as you see your $690 from a 60% disability

you now only get $329 or $412 a month, so it is reduced.

So what happens if ya die before 84, well as they said, if your monthly then they'll calculate the remaining

amount, and it'll be paid to your estate, or next of kin as a lump sum.

So is the $329 all you get, well maybe maybe not depending on your situation, if you have CIA then you'll also get your CIA lvl as well, so your 100% you'll get the $880 PFL, $1500 APFL, if you also get the CIA supplement, you'll get that as well, just don't know were or how they will include it, and or if it'll be non-taxable or taxable but I guess you'll get that as well.

will have to wait till we get closer to April's date to get more confirmed information on where $$$ are gonna go under

the one reason they take back or clawback that overage one received from the extended calculation

is otherwise, they'd be going okay you now have a $129679 over payment, but by using it to reduce

the total from the time you turn 84, your still paying it, cause as you see your $690 from a 60% disability

you now only get $329 or $412 a month, so it is reduced.

So what happens if ya die before 84, well as they said, if your monthly then they'll calculate the remaining

amount, and it'll be paid to your estate, or next of kin as a lump sum.

So is the $329 all you get, well maybe maybe not depending on your situation, if you have CIA then you'll also get your CIA lvl as well, so your 100% you'll get the $880 PFL, $1500 APFL, if you also get the CIA supplement, you'll get that as well, just don't know were or how they will include it, and or if it'll be non-taxable or taxable but I guess you'll get that as well.

will have to wait till we get closer to April's date to get more confirmed information on where $$$ are gonna go under

**BinRat****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 286

Location : Komoka

Registration date : 2008-09-18

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

Something I haven't seen asked or answered is if someone who already received the DA and is then entitled to let's say $300 a month for life, Whatever the difference maybe that VAC calculates can you still take that as a lump sum or are those that took the DA simply going to get the reduced pension amount for life?

**Teager****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 169

Location : ON

Registration date : 2016-03-30

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

Basically, what is happening, is that we are having to pay back the previous Lump sum Awards, except they are clawing it back, over your expected lifetime, instead of a fixed time period like ten years. What will be interesting to see, is what will happen once NVC veterans start hitting that 84 year old mark, and the LSA are fully paid off. Are they going to start getting an unreduced pension? If so, it would also be interesting to see if they give veterans the opportunity to pay it back at an accelerated rate, or make additional payments on it, like a car loan, allowing the Veteran to pay it off that much faster.

For example, if they say they are going to reduce your PFL by $200/mo, for the next 40 years, to pay back $96000. Could you request that they deduct $300/Mo, so the debt would be paid off in only 26 years, and then you could start collecting the full monthly pension?

For example, if they say they are going to reduce your PFL by $200/mo, for the next 40 years, to pay back $96000. Could you request that they deduct $300/Mo, so the debt would be paid off in only 26 years, and then you could start collecting the full monthly pension?

**bigrex****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 3907

Location : Halifax, Nova Scotia

Registration date : 2008-09-18

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

ya interesting question bigrex but when ya could do better investing that money instead of paying back into the system I'm not sure how many will ask to go that route anyway .

propat

propat

**propat****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 296

Location : nb canada

Registration date : 2017-12-06

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

Hey Teager

The answer to your question is Yes.

If your Dollar value is say computed to $300 a month and they figure total for lifetime of the PFL

total will be say $90,000

they will give you the option to keep taking the monthly, and or take the $90K as a lump sum and it'll still be tax free.

If you take monthly and you die at say 75, then they'll calculate the remaining amount and it'll be released to

your next of kin, or estate. Your next of kin/wife whichever wont be able to carry on the monthly amount.

Here's some posting about it.. http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/pension-for-life-1.4468956

Para 8

"The April 2019 programs play a similar shell game with the customary excessive rhetoric. Under a new "holistic package," injured veterans will be given a choice between the current lump sum to compensate for pain and suffering, which pays up to a maximum of $360,000, or a tax-free monthly payment of up to $1150. "

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/services/pension-for-life

7/8th of the page down to the right of where the FAQ starts

"The Pain and Suffering Compensation is designed to recognize and compensate CAF members and Veterans for the pain and suffering they experience due to a disability caused by a service-related illness and/or injury. It is not intended to replace income, which is why the PSC is not taxable.

Based on the member or Veteran's assessed extent of disability, the PSC benefit potentially entitles Veterans up to a maximum of $1,150 a month for life. Veterans and members can also opt to cash out their payments at any time. The intent is to provide the choice of how to receive this benefit, while encouraging recipients to continue the monthly payment.

The answer to your question is Yes.

If your Dollar value is say computed to $300 a month and they figure total for lifetime of the PFL

total will be say $90,000

they will give you the option to keep taking the monthly, and or take the $90K as a lump sum and it'll still be tax free.

If you take monthly and you die at say 75, then they'll calculate the remaining amount and it'll be released to

your next of kin, or estate. Your next of kin/wife whichever wont be able to carry on the monthly amount.

Here's some posting about it.. http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/pension-for-life-1.4468956

Para 8

"The April 2019 programs play a similar shell game with the customary excessive rhetoric. Under a new "holistic package," injured veterans will be given a choice between the current lump sum to compensate for pain and suffering, which pays up to a maximum of $360,000, or a tax-free monthly payment of up to $1150. "

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/services/pension-for-life

7/8th of the page down to the right of where the FAQ starts

"The Pain and Suffering Compensation is designed to recognize and compensate CAF members and Veterans for the pain and suffering they experience due to a disability caused by a service-related illness and/or injury. It is not intended to replace income, which is why the PSC is not taxable.

Based on the member or Veteran's assessed extent of disability, the PSC benefit potentially entitles Veterans up to a maximum of $1,150 a month for life. Veterans and members can also opt to cash out their payments at any time. The intent is to provide the choice of how to receive this benefit, while encouraging recipients to continue the monthly payment.

**BinRat****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 286

Location : Komoka

Registration date : 2008-09-18

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

Has anyone had a chance to read through this?

http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2018/2018-06-02/html/notice-avis-eng.html#nb1

There are some major concerns in there such as I don't see it saying anything about grandfathering CIAS. Also those who have CIA but we're bumped up a grade due to time served could end up being knocked backed down. Yes your grade is protected on coming into force but VAC can ask for a reassessment and new requirements have no time served criteria this bumping those back down a level. It seems there are ton of restrictions in place and will be difficult getting any of these benefits for most of you don't already have them.

http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2018/2018-06-02/html/notice-avis-eng.html#nb1

There are some major concerns in there such as I don't see it saying anything about grandfathering CIAS. Also those who have CIA but we're bumped up a grade due to time served could end up being knocked backed down. Yes your grade is protected on coming into force but VAC can ask for a reassessment and new requirements have no time served criteria this bumping those back down a level. It seems there are ton of restrictions in place and will be difficult getting any of these benefits for most of you don't already have them.

**Teager****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 169

Location : ON

Registration date : 2016-03-30

## Re: QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS - PENSION FOR LIFE UPDATE

I'm having some serious concerns, because of this line.

"Veterans, survivors and orphans who are receiving ELB, RISB, and/or the CIAS on March 31, 2019, will have these amounts protected and indexed annually,

Does that mean if you're getting EELB and CIAS, those amounts will be protected, as long as they only equal the 90% IRB amount? If that is true, it makes no sense whatsoever, since the ELB alone, equals the 90%.

"Veterans, survivors and orphans who are receiving ELB, RISB, and/or the CIAS on March 31, 2019, will have these amounts protected and indexed annually,

__until equal to or less than the IRB amount payable__."Does that mean if you're getting EELB and CIAS, those amounts will be protected, as long as they only equal the 90% IRB amount? If that is true, it makes no sense whatsoever, since the ELB alone, equals the 90%.

**bigrex****CSAT Member**- Number of posts : 3907

Location : Halifax, Nova Scotia

Registration date : 2008-09-18

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