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Time to let the cat out of the bag

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Time to let the cat out of the bag Empty Re: Time to let the cat out of the bag

Post by propat on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 18:49

well buds its kinda the way unions are set up . the heads are elected from the work force by the work force . not management . gotta draw the line somewhere buds . cant have the CDS as head of the union just like a company owner or even local manager cant even be a member of a union .

not citrine where the line will be drawn but officers would defiantly be out of the question. no rank structure just guys getting elected on their merits in the union . this would not divide vets and serving members but perhaps add a little bit more space between officers and NCMs where at least in my experience already exists a huge chasm .

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Time to let the cat out of the bag Empty Re: Time to let the cat out of the bag

Post by Guest on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 17:27

propat wrote:yup no officers at all in the union . ya belong to the MENS mess ya belong in the union . that's where I see this going . NCOs ? snr NCOs??? perhaps but cant see it . no objection from me on that with a few reservations however but no officers AT ALL . they are management and must not be part of this .

propat

Would this not only divide vets and serving soldiers even further apart, assuming there is a union on both fronts?  I can understand your hesitation. Not all officers are worthy of their rank, but the same can be said about some NCO's. (I never did like NCM)

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Time to let the cat out of the bag Empty Re: Time to let the cat out of the bag

Post by Guest on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 16:13

propat wrote:yup no officers at all in the union . ya belong to the MENS mess ya belong in the union . that's where I see this going . NCOs ? snr NCOs??? perhaps but cant see it . no objection from me on that with a few reservations however but no officers AT ALL . they are management and must not be part of this .

propat
IMO, the minute your try and form an orgainization and start talking rank structure to soldiers who are no longer in, they will avoid it like the plague

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Post by propat on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 14:50

yup no officers at all in the union . ya belong to the MENS mess ya belong in the union . that's where I see this going . NCOs ? snr NCOs??? perhaps but cant see it . no objection from me on that with a few reservations however but no officers AT ALL . they are management and must not be part of this .

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Time to let the cat out of the bag Empty Re: Time to let the cat out of the bag

Post by czerv on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 11:51

Generals work for VAC or libturds. Seems that it is their first choice of career progression (meaning lots of $$$). My two cents.

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Post by Teentitan on Tue 18 Dec 2018, 10:51

KNOWLEDGE not a General is needed to make a VETERANS Union work. I don't give a fiddlers fadoo what rank you were in the military!

A union is there to help, fight, educate people/union members. How would a General who knows Sweet F'k All compared to a Corporal who has fought VAC all the way to civilian court a better Union President?

Right now either Bruce Moncur or Sean Bruyea would be a better choice for Union President. They have the knowledge and experience when dealing with VAC and the sitting Gov.
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Post by propat on Mon 17 Dec 2018, 19:09

bruce72 well as in the RCMP example again not a union just representation with limited powers . they were able to keep the PA .this is where a union could have helped . its also an an example of where it could have helped with the recent upcoming cuts and were it could help with future cuts .

where I can see it could really help is by fighting to restore the pain and suffering benefit to pre 2006 levels . I find these would be very beneficial things .

yes we do need a government that will do the right thing however we have been waiting for that for a very long time . don't see any coming in the future at all and gotta tell ya buds getting a little tired of waiting .

heck at this point id just be happy with a government that would not make things worse but I don't see that happening either .

at least until WE fix the system because by default its left to us . the GOC will not fix this until they are forced to.

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Post by propat on Mon 17 Dec 2018, 18:47

the size of a generals nads makes no difference at all . generals follow orders that's it that's all . even if one could have said no to the NVC he wold have been replaced with one that said yes .

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Time to let the cat out of the bag Empty Re: Time to let the cat out of the bag

Post by Guest on Mon 17 Dec 2018, 18:47

Hey, if a veterans union helps then obviously I'm for it. I just don't see how it would be beneficial. Do I have all the answers? No.

What we need is a government that does the right thing.

As for a union in the military, again if it helps and doesn't erode discipline I'm all for it. However I still think it's a bad idea.


Last edited by Bruce72 on Mon 17 Dec 2018, 18:50; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)

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Post by propat on Mon 17 Dec 2018, 18:40

bruce72 ever since 2006 a union not only has a place in the military but has now become absolutely necessary . the generals and GOC in parties of all colors have abdicated their responsibility to take care of the dead and injured soldiers of their military not only shown through the example of the massive cuts to vets benefits in 2006 but the current much smaller but still significant cuts to vets benefits coming april 1st of the new year .

ya think if we just carry on and not do anything significant about this the will return the benefits they stole ? ya think they will just stop cutting benefits ?

happy ??? really ? no. but for afghan vets who sighned the dotted line with the PA in place I gotta tell you aside from happy their was SOME expectations .

now no one can say what a military union would look like however when it comes to strike action you can fairly citrine that the right to strike for those on operation training for operation and those supporting these activities will not be asked for and if it was it would defiantly not be granted by the courts .

a union will not destroy what it means to serve the GOC has already destroyed that by equating are service to that of a factory worker . a union would in fact attempt to restore this .

yes the GOC treats the majority of vets like crap but its not a separate issue at all this IS the issue .

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Post by bigrex on Mon 17 Dec 2018, 17:44

well, we didn't have a General to say no to the NVC, and there apparently isn't a general to have told them that the PFL, is a sham, and nothing more than a political shell game. Because a 100% disabled Veteran could get the $360000 lump sum, AND $1120/ month from CIAS, but under the PFL, that same 100% disabled Veteran would only get the Lump sum, OR the $1150 a month.
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Post by jimmyB1 on Mon 17 Dec 2018, 16:10

bigrex wrote:We don't need a Union per say. What we need is a General with a set of testicles, to stand up and actually fight for the troops, as well as current and future veterans, instead of just letting the Politicians run roughshot with our benefits. For one thing, BPA, and VRAB, should not be part of VAC hierarchy. They should either fall under the control of DND, or the Justice department, to avoid even a perceived sense of loyalty to VAC, and the MVA, instead of the Veterans.
We have one. He's got literally the hugest set and he has done more for myself and every other injured veteran than could ever be summed up here.

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Post by Guest on Mon 17 Dec 2018, 11:49

A union has no place in the military. You can't have soldiers threatening to strike if their unhappy. It's the military, nobody said you'd be happy.

Think of it. What happens if soldiers strike because they don't want to go on operation.

You'll have soldiers testing the system constantly to see what they can get away with.

A union will destroy what it means to serve.

Now does the GOC treat the majority of veterans like crap? Yes, but that's a separate issue.

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Post by Teager on Mon 17 Dec 2018, 11:20

Sure unions manage to get better pay and benefits but I think nowadays they are pushing that envelope to far. A lot of unionized businesses are leaving or cutting there work force down, or it even costs consumers more money. My personal view is that unions are out for themselves not so much the workers. I think government knows this and if that happened with a veteran union vets would be really screwed as they would be fighting government and the union.

If a veteran union came into existence I would limit the amount of money union heads and staff could make and make sure there a checks on there power.

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Post by propat on Mon 17 Dec 2018, 10:50

yup good points about the problems with some unions . heck im sure I could come up with at least another half dozen examples of bad union behavior . however when you look at it as a whole and not just specific examples union workers get paid more get better benefits and better working conditions than their non unionized counterparts . studies have shown this proved out time and again .

so yes their are unions that show some bad behavior however if the workers are engaged they can mitigate this bad behavior through their voting proses .

now I gotta also say I can give you a whole slew of examples of good behavior by unions but ill only give you one and heck at the time it wasn't even a union.im using this one as it is the closest I can find that will be most similar to us and have very similar goals. it was just an org with limited powers to collectively bargain for the RCMP however soon to be a union with greater bargaining powers .

these guys with all there limitations were able to keep the PA not just initially in there first rejection of it but a second time going the extra mile during the GOCs sideways legislative move to force it on them . if we have had this org at the time we would still have the PA today .

don't ya think that would be worth the effort ????

a military union was absolutely necessary in 2006 but was not in place sadly . I know this will happen I have no doubt . what im wondering is how bad things will get before it happens ? I mean where is rock bottom?

great and interesting discussion for us . however it will be more impactfully when it is brought to the military membership and they have their discussions

propat .


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