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Time to stop the talk and really do something?

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Post by Teentitan Fri 08 Jul 2016, 20:37

Well as good as an idea that is Pinger the problem is there is currently 6 veteran orgs that are now advisors for various improvements. So count them out as they do not want to lose that esteemed position.

Not to mention that until the Legion is de-classified as a veteran organization they will never join the objective.

That is why I suggested that all the veterans need to eliminate the RCL and have it recognized for what it is...a social club.

Does anyone know if the RCL was punished for illegally accessing veteran files a few months ago? Were the prepetrators fired? Fined? Banned? Oh wait that is saved for 86 year old women who want to talk to the Domion Command President about the treatment of veterans and how the Legion is not doing enough.

Until the Legion is totally eliminated from the picture they will always be in the way.
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Post by pinger Fri 08 Jul 2016, 19:33

O.K... so here goes my brain fart of the day.

What if every advocacy group were all agreeable to only
ONE highest priority
. ONLY ONE specific target.
Pass on the secondary to ten.
Could be cornflakes or the return of PA pension.
But concentrate it.

I would think consolidation towards one goal could forgo the
hissy fits and the personal agendas would go to the wayside???
because of one the primary goal everyones agreeable with.

Say, the return of PA lifelong pensions for example.
Or even Rice fracking crispies.

Just a thought
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Post by Guest Fri 08 Jul 2016, 12:23

Another problem with protest is that goals differ from one group to another, there are some who just want to see improvements to the NVC where as there's some who simply want the tax free pension returned. We need to keep one thing in mind with regards to the Equitas suit, if successful, all the Court has the power under our Constitution to do is to declare that the NVC is unconstitutional and that the government must fix it. There is no guarantee what that fix may be. So yes the Equitas is proactive in a way of improvements, but it is important to note that they are limited in the way of forcing legislation that Veterans would like to see changed. I would say at the present time the government has the upper hand, like I said before, I appreciate all the work advocating groups do on our behalf, very much appreciated, but this type of advocating I would say fits right into the governments hand, it really ends up in this continuous circle of meetings/discussions between advocates and the government which always ends up with the government doing what they want, not what the advocates are calling for, yes they have succeeded in some improvements but the writing of legislation is written in a way that suits the government. In my opinion the re-opening of VAC offices was a priority because it creates more jobs, more people paying taxes, which is why the government made this a priority. With regards to protest I stand by my previous statement that more public protest will put pressure on the government to act. One Idea is to have in place and advocating group who strictly deals with only public protest, this would be the cause of their duty as a Veterans advocacy group. A leader would have to be put in place to lead this group in it's objectives, goals would need to be set for any given protest, speeches would need to be presented for the protest, the protest area would need to be addressed, information of the time and place, objective and so on would need to be addressed in given a heads up on the protest event. The media would need to be contacted, and yes a bank of funds would be Ideal for such things as bus shuttles, signs and so on. So it all sounds complicated and some effort involved but with a good leader, and a good team to support the leader, it's all possible to accomplish.

These are simply my thoughts on the best way I see real improvements to our file, but I understand there will be many who disagree with my thoughts, I have no problem with that but would like to hear other opinions as the way you see things moving forward on our file, what other suggestions do you have to add besides mine and the other opinions posted above to accomplish getting real action that affects all Veterans well being in terms of real fixes, not bandage fixes.

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Post by pinger Fri 08 Jul 2016, 11:51

I hear you teen, ratio's. Like the 40:1 come 25:1 cm to vet.
But disabled vets using VAC as opposed to healthy vets who do not
use VAC would be a veeery interesting thing to know.

Oh well, in the mean time Steelgunner
everyone of us are the "cats" you mentioned.
Frankly, I'm just wondering if the knife has gotten dull in the last year.
Probably not...
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Post by Teentitan Fri 08 Jul 2016, 11:19

Until there is another revolt of veterans like in 1919 in Winnipeg veteran issues will be campaign issues and then slow progress.

Steelgunner I totally agree with you about a mass protest the only problem is there are way too many veteran egos that will want to be in charge of it. And ofcourse the Legion will not support it.

Maybe vets should start small and have the Legion's Service Bureau from accessing our VAC files as they are not the veteran organization they were. Rather they are a social club full of civies with prying eyes for gossip around the table over beers.

As for how many vets 'use' VAC it is a mystery number you will never find because they are records they don't keep. Why? Efficiency. If VAC had the number of vets that use VAC services the ratio of empolyees to veterans would be brought into the equation of work efficiency.
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Post by Guest Thu 07 Jul 2016, 22:14

Pinger, I understand what you said.  No problem.

But, if the vast majority leave intact and are happy, then what is the problem with a small group of injuried Vets that VAC can't sort out and keep happy without miss management.  Getting worn out with VAC.  So excuse my rants.

I think the main thing that has me going is JT has lied to us all, and has told us to F off in my opinion. MVA  can't relate to us.


Last edited by Steelgunner on Fri 08 Jul 2016, 19:30; edited 1 time in total

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Post by pinger Thu 07 Jul 2016, 21:32

Steelgunner, who's to say all vets even use VAC to begin with?

What I bear in mind is the larger able-bodied majority that exit one way or another
and live happily ever after..

... as opposed to ...
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Post by Guest Thu 07 Jul 2016, 20:53

Trying to find my own answer to my question, have not found the answer yet.  But did find the below stat from VAC.  

Estimated Veteran Population as of March 2015**

Second World War
75,900; their average age is 91
Korean War
9,100; their average age is 83.
CF Veterans (Regular Forces and Primary Reserves)
600,300; their average age is 57.

The reason I asked, was not for just wondering how many percent wise use VAC, it's for a strategy for making a point down the road, if most VETs use VAC which I would think is very high or if it's not 100% then I would be amazed if you did not get injuried yourself during training, sports in the military, overseas or what ever.  My point is we all use VAC for a lot of reasons, if we can find common ground to bring us together without making this about what group is bigger or better.  I see a problem, it's us, we have so much power if we use it right.  I am back to thinking what the First Nations did, and where very successful.   Yes, my rant..... But I will convert it into action.

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Post by pinger Thu 07 Jul 2016, 20:30

What you mention bigrex reminds me of an overall, comprehensive infrastructure that keeps going south.
Like overall support. Or the politics of the day running downriver to the military from day one on.

In the early 80's quite a lot of East coast sailors had voluntary releases in and left.
The bebopping was a real quirk. Hell, I revoked mine twice but stuck around.
Not whining about it, would do it all over again. Just never today'

Steelgunner, Somedays I ask myself what the percent of Vets use Veteran Affairs Canada after service?
Say someone releases healthy... ? ever after. They wouldn't ever have a reason to approach VAC to
begin with. The majority probably do okay.
.

Does anyone know what percent of Vets join the Legion after service?
I don't give a very polite rat......
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Post by Guest Thu 07 Jul 2016, 17:34

I agree with Rex in what you said in regards to the Legion.  It would be very easy to shame them in front of the Legions across Canada and the press can be easily invited to cover the protest so we can get our point across.

Does anyone know what the percent of Vets use Veteran Affairs Canada after service?

Does anyone know what percent of Vets join the Legion after service?

We need to bring action into the picture, waiting for press releases from the courts is a very very slow form of self induced shit sandwich served by ourselves.

I am in BC, lower mainland.  Anyone wanting to meet for coffee let me know.  I would need help in regards to when the BC courts plan to release info or when they release the upcoming decision on the appeal.  It would be nice to show our support outside the courts with a few signs.  A special one for MVA and lying JT.

Action speaks! We don't need money or a bank account. We need action, no matter how small or big they are.

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Post by Guest Thu 07 Jul 2016, 11:37

well protests letter righting and the rest have been going on for decades now with limited success . advocates have had the same limited success's and the stakeholder meetings are just a government PR stunt nothing more .

the most effective is whatever garners media attention and grabs the concerns of Canadians in general . especially near election time .

keep in mind all these guys care about in money and votes .

soo ALL forms of getting your message out are important .

so ya I'm all in on steelgunners idea and other ideas and would love to participate in any and ALL .

WHAT we truly need to accomplish our goals is a vets political ORG that would change the game . we would need other orgs support and good money men . build a bank account then start the lobbying .

THAT my friends is the ultimate solution to ALL our problems .

propat




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Post by Dannypaj Thu 07 Jul 2016, 07:55

Now we are working as a team!
The best quote I've heard while still doing my duties as a Comm. was by an ex- R.C.R, Leslie N. and I quote "there is no I in team!"
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Post by Guest Thu 07 Jul 2016, 06:32

I agree, public protest is what will get the attention of this government, look at the ABC group and what was accomplished from them, look at the protest from Banished Veterans for Mr. Petter Blindheim, both successful. I agree with Rex, don't count on the Legion for support with public protest, the Legion is not going to go against the government in protesting as they are in bed with the government and they have lost a lot of Veterans membership and are run by civilians who do not advocate in the same principals as other advocating groups. In my opinion in order for more protest to occur we need to start at the advocating level from advocating groups. I think Veterans advocating has to change tactics somewhat in the way they advocate, stakeholder meetings, writing letters and so forth is all good but what is really being accomplished here, the government loves this as they are in full control and they can say their listening, they can repeat the same tone of support tell the cows come home but without actually acting, what has been accomplished for Veterans. We had 10 years of using this tactic only to be put right back in the very same situation as we find ourselves in today. Protest needs planning, it can be difficult to plan as many disabled Veterans have a hard time making it to a protest, but it is certainly possible to organize a successful protest. We have to look at the merits of holding public protest, in a public protest unlike stakeholder meetings and writing your concerns to the government where the government can easily control things, public protest gives Veterans full control and gets the message out loud and clear to the whole Country, something the government does not like to see. Again, in my opinion public protest is the way of the future in terms of having our voices heard and proactive action taken on our file. One way Veterans can help with having more protest is to get on the Facebook of advocacy groups and suggest they organize more public protest.

JMO

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Post by pinger Thu 07 Jul 2016, 00:15

Steelgunner, I understand.

But in my opinion, First Nations Idle No More movement was much more "together".
They were a ONE, all together.

Where as veterans "one veteran, ONE standard" is just an overused dead cliche to me.
Differences and personal agendas would have to be set aside (almost impossible)

VERY difficult with all the different groups etc. etc., politics Smile and don't forget the money.

Some sort of a CAT D9 steamroller would even work on the legion though...
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Post by bigrex Wed 06 Jul 2016, 22:43

We will never get the support of the Legion. Period. They even refused to add their weight to the annual national day of protest that we had several years ago. They say they prefer letter writing and other non committal ways of advocating. After all, they Legion, with their dwindling numbers, relies heavily of federal funding to survive. So if the Legion ever truly stood beside us, against the GoC, in public, they would be taking their cash cow to the slaughter house.
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