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Its coming fast, lets start mailing the judge

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Post by Guest Sun 18 Nov 2012, 17:16

Did not the GOC throw everything at this case to delay it? What about the blackouts and gag orders?

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Post by Guest Sun 18 Nov 2012, 17:13

Pensions being clawed back when we get CCP, has been on the cutting board for years. This subget if think has been in the HoC of few times, True that when CCP comes in military pensions are clawed back by about the same amount. My wife's father loss all but sumething like 100$ or so, I rememberhim being very pi__sed off at the time and still comes oround to that subjet every so often. But now I'm only a few years from that and it would be good that the NDP would cooperate in that mater. I met M. Stoffer in Ottawa a few years back on onather subjet pertaning from DND. He gave some advise but would not go before the cameras is I would have wanted. Stoffer does try to help vets, but that's his job, his party thought does not have that job.

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Post by 6608 Sun 18 Nov 2012, 17:13

here are the rules..............
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-106/

Costs

334.39 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no costs may be awarded against any party to a motion for certification of a proceeding as a class proceeding, to a class proceeding or to an appeal arising from a class proceeding, unless

(a) the conduct of the party unnecessarily lengthened the duration of the proceeding;

(b) any step in the proceeding by the party was improper, vexatious or unnecessary or was taken through negligence, mistake or excessive caution; or

(c) exceptional circumstances make it unjust to deprive the successful party of costs.

so the way i read it as long as they haven't slowed or delayed the "proceedings" then you cant claim costs..............
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Post by Guest Sun 18 Nov 2012, 17:12

Why not release the settlement before the 14 of Dec, release it now, and it will give us a couple of extra weeks o go through it. Peter, what irks the class is why does the GOC get off Scott free , their should be punishment for all the delays and actually doing the clawback in the first place. If you rob a bank , the law not only wants the money back, they want the person to pay a price for doing the crime, What is the GOC up punishment for this?

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Post by Guest Sun 18 Nov 2012, 17:07

Why did the law firm ask for legal fees to be covered in the original court papers if it was not allowed?

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Post by Guest Sun 18 Nov 2012, 17:06

Teen, I think it was wrong to vote against that bill, but I truly believe on a social level , the ndp would support veterans better than the status quote. But who knows , until and if they get into power they will have to prove themselves, and maybe they will turn into what every other partie has done, but lets give them a chance. Teen , as for waiting for the settlement to make our views known to the judge, I believe s the wrong approach, for one we have already been told that according to law we can not get legal fees covered, which may or may not be true because why in the original case did we ask for them? What then do we have to lose, maybe if pressure is applied , and when sane, clear thinking people see this, our request for legal fees covered I believe is not something out of this world to ask for. Remember for a lot of us this is our last shot, after an agreement there is nothing left, so if we can possibly change this by applying common sense and pressure, maybe if not the judge, maybe someone at Conservative headquarters will inform the dear leader, and maybe just maybe, in between him thinking of oil and banks and cutting EI and raising OAS to 67, His royal highness, might just agree to cover legal fees for us , He already spent 5 billion more than he said he would , what's 180 million for our lawyers

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Post by Guest Sun 18 Nov 2012, 17:05

The Ontario Rules are not applicable to our class proceeding in Federal Court .

bigrex wrote:Peter, thank you for the note, but I thought in the past that you have said that according to federal court rules that you cannot make the government to pay costs as part of the negotiations but that the judge has final say pertaining to legal fees.

In the Ontario Courts of Justice Act states;

"RULE 57 COSTS OF PROCEEDINGS BETWEEN PARTY AND PARTY
GENERAL PRINCIPLES
Factors in Discretion
57.01 (1) In exercising its discretion under section 131 of the Courts of Justice Act to award costs, the court may consider, in addition to the result in the proceeding and any offer to settle made in writing,

(a) the amount claimed and the amount recovered in the proceeding;
(b) the apportionment of liability;
(c) the complexity of the proceeding;
(d) the importance of the issues;
(e) the conduct of any party that tended to shorten or to lengthen unnecessarily the duration of the proceeding;
(f) whether any step in the proceeding was,

(i) improper, vexatious or unnecessary, or
(ii) taken through negligence, mistake or excessive caution;


(g) a party's denial of or refusal to admit anything that should have been admitted;
(h) whether it is appropriate to award any costs or more than one set of costs where a party,

(i) commenced separate proceedings for claims that should have been made in one proceeding, or
(ii) in defending a proceeding separated unnecessarily from another party in the same interest or defended by a different solicitor; and

(i) any other matter relevant to the question of costs."

I know that this is not the Federal guidelines, but should not every court in Canada follow the same rules of Law? The only reference I could find in the Federal Courts Act pertaining to costs was this clause

"Enforcement of order for payment of money

(2) An order for payment of money, whether for costs or otherwise, may be enforced in the same manner as a judgment."

I'm not a lawyer. but I didn't see any example stating that costs cannot be assigned to the defendant in a class action, if they lose. In most class action suits, the defendant has already taken steps to repair the damage, such as recalls or improved performance ongoing, and the class actions are started to compensate for damage that had already occurred, like the new case against XL foods, for the loss of life and illness. In our case, the government did nothing to correct the situation, and would not have acted except through a court order, and only settled after their entire defense was thrown out in the preliminary hearing, as being unfounded. So if we hadn't had that preliminary hearing and just waited for the trial, these negotiations would not be happening. It would have been a judgement from the court, which I feel would have been hefty in light of the case. So, it is of my belief that the judge still has the discretion to assign costs to the government, because of their inaction before the case was entered, and their actions afterwards, including delaying payments to class members who would have otherwise been in receipt of benefits, as a bargaining tool.


Last edited by McInnes Cooper on Sun 18 Nov 2012, 17:24; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Guest Sun 18 Nov 2012, 17:03

Class Members:

The rules applicable to our proceedings are the Federal Court Rules which provide that costs (i.e. legal fees) are not generally payable in class proceedings. Please see our previous memorandums. These rules are different than the general cost rules found in the Federal Court and in other provinces. We have reviewed the exceptions for costs in a class proceeding, and determined they are not applicable.

Peter

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Post by Teentitan Sun 18 Nov 2012, 16:00

Sorry but I don't agree with your NDP logic navrat. If the NDP were so pro veteran then why did they vote against Bill C-217? The bill that is introducing tougher sentencing for vandalizing war monuments.

Just because Stoffer stands up in HoC and pounds his chest does not mean if the NDP ever became the governing party they would fix all veteran problems. They would have to fight what every other government has had to fight...the bureaucrats!

As for what Peter said thanks. It is wise to wait and write a letter to Judge Barnes when you have the agreement in your hands. Right now you are lobbing grenades that could be way off target. A letter should only be written once by anyone. It should be correct and on point to have any impact with the Judge. Too many letters in my opinion will only dull his senses and possibly his compassion with us veterans.

One more thing about the NDP if you guys want to see if they are pro veteran then contact Stoffer, Mulcair, Dewer, Nash and demand that they submit a bill in the HoC where a military/RCMP veteran's CPP should get a 10% raise because our CF/RCMP pension is clawed back when we get CPP. Let's see how pro veteran they are then.

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Post by Guest Sun 18 Nov 2012, 15:29

Paying cost's (fees) is part of the intended deal. Never the less, compensations will surreally be negotiated to conter balence the fees and a few others (taxes ect...) How this finally comes out, we will all have the oppertunaty to asses, evaluate and answer to it, I for one has already identified a lawyer to (TRANSLATE) the settlement. Many legal terms will be used and I really want to know exactly what it means. I hope Peter and his team will give us there interpration of the futur document, for wy will come up whit ower own interpatations, that sould be a very interresting week or shoulkd I says Chistmas holiday.

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Post by Guest Sun 18 Nov 2012, 15:25

bigrex when peter said the judge has final say on the leagal fees i belive he ment how much we pay.you dont have any of the federal court rules as pertains to leagal fees do you ?i did at one point but cant seem to find them now.
propat

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Post by Guest Sun 18 Nov 2012, 15:07

Great post, Big Rex, this is what we need, Peter, all the class is asking for is some sort of acknowledgement that the GOC tried to screw us but didn't get away with it. Is it so wrong to expect the GOC to cover legal fees since they made us go down this road ? Why should the GOC not pay damages? This should be a given, in the original lawsuit did you not ask for these , so what has changed

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Post by bigrex Sun 18 Nov 2012, 14:51

Peter, thank you for the note, but I thought in the past that you have said that according to federal court rules that you cannot make the government to pay costs as part of the negotiations but that the judge has final say pertaining to legal fees.

In the Ontario Courts of Justice Act states;

"RULE 57 COSTS OF PROCEEDINGS BETWEEN PARTY AND PARTY
GENERAL PRINCIPLES
Factors in Discretion
57.01 (1) In exercising its discretion under section 131 of the Courts of Justice Act to award costs, the court may consider, in addition to the result in the proceeding and any offer to settle made in writing,

(a) the amount claimed and the amount recovered in the proceeding;
(b) the apportionment of liability;
(c) the complexity of the proceeding;
(d) the importance of the issues;
(e) the conduct of any party that tended to shorten or to lengthen unnecessarily the duration of the proceeding;
(f) whether any step in the proceeding was,

(i) improper, vexatious or unnecessary, or
(ii) taken through negligence, mistake or excessive caution;


(g) a party's denial of or refusal to admit anything that should have been admitted;
(h) whether it is appropriate to award any costs or more than one set of costs where a party,

(i) commenced separate proceedings for claims that should have been made in one proceeding, or
(ii) in defending a proceeding separated unnecessarily from another party in the same interest or defended by a different solicitor; and

(i) any other matter relevant to the question of costs."

I know that this is not the Federal guidelines, but should not every court in Canada follow the same rules of Law? The only reference I could find in the Federal Courts Act pertaining to costs was this clause

"Enforcement of order for payment of money

(2) An order for payment of money, whether for costs or otherwise, may be enforced in the same manner as a judgment."

I'm not a lawyer. but I didn't see any example stating that costs cannot be assigned to the defendant in a class action, if they lose. In most class action suits, the defendant has already taken steps to repair the damage, such as recalls or improved performance ongoing, and the class actions are started to compensate for damage that had already occurred, like the new case against XL foods, for the loss of life and illness. In our case, the government did nothing to correct the situation, and would not have acted except through a court order, and only settled after their entire defense was thrown out in the preliminary hearing, as being unfounded. So if we hadn't had that preliminary hearing and just waited for the trial, these negotiations would not be happening. It would have been a judgement from the court, which I feel would have been hefty in light of the case. So, it is of my belief that the judge still has the discretion to assign costs to the government, because of their inaction before the case was entered, and their actions afterwards, including delaying payments to class members who would have otherwise been in receipt of benefits, as a bargaining tool.
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Post by Guest Sun 18 Nov 2012, 14:05

Hey guys, I appreciate your text Peter, but so many others have told me that in previous cases , judges can award legal fees, and I don't want you for one moment to think I don't believe the law firm deserves every penny because I do, but from a class members point of view we have been told the GOC doesn't want to pay damages , so this puts us in a position of asking what does the GOC want to pay? If they only pay retro for what is owed they are getting away with murder because that does not even cover inflation for us, and for someone like me I will be getting less than someone who sisip payed all those years because they don't have legal fees to pay and don't have to take inflation into account. Maybe they can't pay legal fees but with intervention from Parilament, maybe they, Harper , will offer it. Teen, Yes , Harper stepped up but do you think he just stepped up because he had no choice? You of all people know that if Harper or any party cared they would give us damages and pay the legal fees. Can you honestly tell me that if Peter Stoffer was Prime Minister that we would even be talking about damages or legal fees, no a chance the ndp would pay them, and Yes the liberals have been bad for the military in the past , but lets look to the future. I believe any partie that supports giving us damages and legal fees deserves our vote. Also Peter, Can you honestly say that damages and legal fees should not be payed by the GOC . You if all people have had o deal with these snakes, they did something wrong , tried to prolong and screw s, especially zero sum, and won't say sorry, they bring in mr. Toope. This GOC has at the very least pay damages

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Post by Guest Sun 18 Nov 2012, 13:21

thank you peter.
propat

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