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What is the next course of action after the 1st and 2nd National appeal denial...

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Post by propat on Thu 30 May 2019, 14:00

ya very much understood .

sooo

you agree with everything I said then ?

propat

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Post by Teentitan on Thu 30 May 2019, 13:36

propat I made the statement from experience. I am one of the 65% of that Ombudsman report. In conversation with the lawyer I had to hire I said I just want to sue them for malice and her flat answer was "waste of money".

I asked her why and she told me if you are standing at the bottom of a ladder you cannot just jump to the top of the ladder and sue. You have to take it one rung at a time because this is Canada not the United States where they sue if you fart into a windstorm and someone smells it and they feel they were offended or done wrong.

The first rung of the ladder is to legally prove that VRAB's denial was wrong and the goal is to get the court to order VRAB to redo the appeal process. There is your first $20K legal bill.

Second rung, if the court agrees with your case, is to do the appeal process all over again with VRAB. If VRAB acknowledges their mistake and favors your application with VAC then you get compensation from VAC. Case closed.

Third rung if the court sides with VRAB you can appeal the provincial court decision and prove they were wrong in not ordering VRAB to redo your initial application. There is another $20k in legal fees.

Fourth rung if your appeal to provincial court is successful you go thru the VRAB hearings again. Win you get compensation from VAC case closed.

Lose the second round of appeals with VRAB you can either go thru the provincial court system again to prove VRAB wrong (which has happened) OR file a claim with the Canadian Charter of Rights court that you are being discriminated against your disability by VAC/VRAB/Provincial court.

Win that one and you still have to go thru the application process with VAC again. But you can sue for legal fees and punitive damages in civil court and yes there is more legal fees to be paid out of pocket.

The reason VRAB is wrong 65% of the time, as discovered by the OVO, is because VRAB is a "quasi-legal court system" NOT a real court of law. This is why VRAB was created to protect VAC and the GoC from lawsuits from denied claims from veterans and to create a massive financial road block for injured vets

If a veteran wants to just sue for punitive damages go ahead but be prepared to defend yourself as to why you did not climb the ladder and jumped right to the top. I couldn't even imagine what the price tag is for legal fees on that one? Or how long it would take.

That is why the OVO did the report on VRAB to begin with. The goal by the OVO was to have the legal/court ladder removed for veterans and to seek another avenue of appeal after the 2nd level of appeal with VRAB was a failure for veterans.

What should be done is a medical peer review instead of a legal procedure when it comes to injuries of Canadian Forces Personnel.

So to sum up there is a legal avenue veterans have to follow because VRAB is what I stated a quasi-legal court system.

So not to scare the bejeezers out of you Unknown Soldier contact the OVO FIRST and see what they have for a recommendation for what you should do.
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Post by propat on Thu 30 May 2019, 12:41

yaaaaa just laying out options that's it that's all . certainly just like all cases in civi life and every case when it comes to a law suit you would want to exhaust EVERY other option . but to say its not an option is just plain WRONG !!!!

this option is in FACT afforded to you by law . the question after all other avenues of grievance are exhausted is …. is it worth it ???

5% claim 100% claim somewhere in the middle neither me or you teen can answer that question .

its been done successfully many times before having the court order a new VRAB review and success in that review .

ill go ya one better if it were me and I had exhausted all other options , knew I had a excellent chance of success and the math said its worth it id sue the board for punitive damages as well . 10 mill 100 mil who knows ??

does this judicial board have protections from this ? yes in fact they do so not many attempt this believing falsely there protections are unlimited .

in fact Canadian case law shows us those protections are not unlimited the president is there .

you just need to prove malice by the legal definition . basically they are wronging you on purpose . sounds complicated but its my belief the ombudsman's report on VRAB has already accomplished this task . 65% of denials done wrong !!!! seriously !!! this is no accident no fracking mistake . 2.5% ok 5% a bit of a stretch but sure we are all human but 65% ! heck if ya can flip a fracking coin and do better there is some serious flackery going on here .

but back to my initial post sorry about the rambling .

newf laid out a good list of options ya should look in to I thought however he missed one that belongs last on the list as it should be the last option anyone should choose for anything but....

IT IS IN FACT AN OPTION!!!

propat


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Post by Teentitan on Thu 30 May 2019, 11:11

Without knowing what medical injury was denied the only advice I read worthwhile was the BPA advice to contact the Ombudsman's office.

Suing is not an option propat....provincial superior court, which is most likely on the horizon for you Unknown Soldier, will either back VRAB's denial or order another appeal to be presented to VRAB.

If; and I hope you don't need to do this as it can cost up to $20K because you have to hire a lawyer to present your case to the provincial superior court. I can tell you make sure you have a lawyer who is very familiar with workmans comp as this is the usual route cases like this take. Oh and it is very rare that you get your lawyer fees back. FYI this process can take up to 2 years to complete. DO NOT EVEN THINK YOU CAN FIGHT THIS IN PROVINCIAL COURT YOURSELF. There is a lot of applications, submitting applications that need to be done and if you miss one you have to start all over. Hiring a lawyer protects you from this because the lawyer is responsible for any screwups.
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Post by Unknown Soldier on Thu 30 May 2019, 10:35

Newf wrote:Well, I suggest at this stage to identify and exhaust as many options as you can to help you in making a decision such as;  

1. I don’t think your MP may be able to pull any strings for you but he/she may give you some ideas  to pursue such as contact persons, contact agencies or even a law firm that may provide a free consultation to you about your case.

2.  Contact the ombudsman’s office, explain your situation and see if he can provide advice.

3.  Contact your service officer at the legion as well.

4. Find out the reasoning what the BPA will not take on your case. Perhaps, there is a means to appeal or challenge  their decision.  Get the reasons in writing and keep good notes.

5. Maybe considering contacting the minister of vac office to explain your situation and see if they can help.

There are members of this group who may be able to assist or provide some ideas to you as well. It may take a few days.
thanks again, apparently the ombudsman looks at issues like this when everything else has been tried, I dont know their turn around time though.
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Post by propat on Thu 30 May 2019, 10:22

well you could still sue .

propat

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Post by Newf on Wed 29 May 2019, 18:35

Well, I suggest at this stage to identify and exhaust as many options as you can to help you in making a decision such as;  

1. I don’t think your MP may be able to pull any strings for you but he/she may give you some ideas  to pursue such as contact persons, contact agencies or even a law firm that may provide a free consultation to you about your case.

2.  Contact the ombudsman’s office, explain your situation and see if he can provide advice.

3.  Contact your service officer at the legion as well.

4. Find out the reasoning what the BPA will not take on your case. Perhaps, there is a means to appeal or challenge  their decision.  Get the reasons in writing and keep good notes.

5. Maybe considering contacting the minister of vac office to explain your situation and see if they can help.

There are members of this group who may be able to assist or provide some ideas to you as well. It may take a few days.


Last edited by Newf on Wed 29 May 2019, 18:36; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)
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Post by Unknown Soldier on Wed 29 May 2019, 18:22

Newf wrote:Here is some info on appeal process:

https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/veterans-rights/how-to-appeal/bureau-pensions-advocates/review-appeal-process

Also, contact the Ombudsmans and your local MP as they MAY be of assistance.

Newf
Thanks but BPA said they can’t take this on, but yes it is an ombudsman case, I have heard of veterans going to their MP before, but can they actually pull any strings with VAC, similarly doesn’t the Legion have some advocacy officer, but who can they really influence, isn’t it just a figure head position?
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Post by Newf on Wed 29 May 2019, 16:41

Here is some info on appeal process:

https://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/veterans-rights/how-to-appeal/bureau-pensions-advocates/review-appeal-process

Also, contact the Ombudsmans and your local MP as they MAY be of assistance.

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Post by Unknown Soldier on Wed 29 May 2019, 15:27

Ombudsman?, or is there yet another tier.?
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