Re: Legal Fees (Assorted Topics)

by Guest Sun 03 Feb 2013, 17:02

`Rags are you going to halifax? If not that info would be a killer for the media, it your not going, could you forward the dates the GOC asked for Dennis to pay if he lost?

by Rags Sun 03 Feb 2013, 16:50

On two previous occasion during the trial action Gov thought they were going to win and both times they requested to the court to have Dennis pay their legal costs. Well shoe is on the other foot now. Dennis won so in keeping with the Governments position we think the loser should pay costs......appears to be this time.

A judge will not look to kindly upon a defendant who keeps asking to have his expenses paid when he thinks he has won. Especially when he loses......and now the plaintif asks to have same applied right back. This is a great piece of info buried in the documents. I know from previous litigation judges get real cranky when a defended asks repeatedly to be paid at the thought of a win only to lose and be asked to pay now. It is one thing to go right to the end and after all done ask but not throughout and then lose and expect the judge wont nail you with bill when plaintif asks for exactly what you asked for all along.

by Rags Sun 27 Jan 2013, 22:01

The lawyers spent about 100k out of pocket plus salary of 2 or 3. They earned ever penny not cause they worked very little but that was the contract thats just the way it works, so i say pay the man. My issue is who pays him. If ya don't like the payout then make them earn there money lets take this to court we will win more money and easily get a judgement to have GOV pay lawyers. Whats another 1 to 2 million from legal to earn 67 million. Its a great deal for 2 year SISiP LTD gift on medical release its a great deal for the combat disabled zero sum. its a really really bad deal for the combat disabled 99.9% sum.

by Guest Sun 27 Jan 2013, 21:09

I would start at about 13 million plus all disbursements, because this wasn't the ONLY case bringing money in for the law firm and the associated legal professionals, they must have been doing other things, they couldn't have had 20 personnel tied up 24/7 for six years doing this.

Awarding them each the 'long term employee' salary in full for each year of the law suit more than compensates them for the risk, at least in my humble opinion.

That is:

$110,000/yr x 20 employees x 6yrs = $13,200,000.

And then throw in another $500,000 a year for the firm itself, let's make it $16,200,000.

And lets throw in the $600,000 for disbursements to $16,800,000.

Let's round it off to $17,000,000.

Let's call it $17,000,000, then, shall we?

by Guest Sun 27 Jan 2013, 21:05

Had to laugh monthly rates for a private in 1976 (date back to retro) was $500.00 monthly, yes monthly. The average soldier was obligated to approx 720 hours per month, so 0.70 cents an hour. 2012 The average trained private will make around $4300.00 monthly also committed to 720 hours a month so around $6.00 an hour as all soldiers are on call 24/7. Just wondering why McInnis Cooper can potentially earn $8,672.49 per hour served???. I realize they took a gamble on the case, I appreciate their efforts. However, nobody deserves that kind of a payday???? $65,000,000 dollars ??????? Soldiers are the backbone of our society and to watch others profit, off of their bloods, sweat and tears is killing me. If anybody deserves a big payday, it is Dennis Manuge. I am still baffled, please pay the lawyers well, reward those who deserve it, but to even consider a payout of that magnitude is surreal.

by Guest Sun 27 Jan 2013, 20:58

Greatfoot wrote:So, after having looked at the schedules of fees and of other class actions, here's what we've got:

From Schedule A and paragraph 49:

Total potential of legal fees, as by percentage:
$65,574,156

Total of disbursements, to date and projected:
$530,464.62

For a difference of:
$65,043,691.38

To be paid out to 20 legal professionals:
$3,252,184.60 each, over 6 years:
$542,030.76 each per year.
(As compared to a 7+yr employee in a large firm at an average of $110,000 a year, or in a small firm at $75,000 a year or more - from IvyGlobal website, Maritime Canada salaries)

Or, paid out over 7200+ hours of work, let's round it up to 7500, cuz business is not over yet:
$8,672.49 per hour invested.
(As compared to an average of $326/hr in 2011 - from Canadian Lawyer website survey)

Now let's look at Schedule C - Other Class Actions for Comparison

Average fees as a percentage of recovery of all suits listed:
22.51%

Average fees as a percentage of suits similar to ours, of which there are only three (I used in excess of $500,000,000 as qualification):
4.25%

The average fees as a percentage results listed in Schedule C are skewed by the fact that a majority of the cases resulted in relatively small awards, and therefore the fees were proportionally larger when compared with the actual awards.

Of the fees in the suits that were comparable to ours, the fees for the $1,900,000,000 Residential School suit were the highest at $85,000,000, so very nearly half of what we are expecting to pay, when all sums are considered.
Or three quarters for Tainted Blood 1, or roughly a third for Tainted Blood II.

I feel that the percentage of fees as presented would be appropriate if, in fact, there was only representation of the original estimated numbers of affected. But given the light of day, there are alot more affected, which leads to a commensurate increase in payout on the government's part, but does not necessarily need to be reflected in maintaining the original estimate for fees. Further, I stick to my guns in regards to my opined thought that the lawyers did not work any harder for the $300k guy or any less for the $10k guy, work was completed for each member equally.

I'm not sure where I am going with this, but I'm sure the Judge will take all of this into consideration.

And, so what if the lawyers wouldn't have been paid if we didn't win, does that give them the right to ask for more just in case there was a big pay off?
I'm not buying the whole 'risk' thing, I'll follow the 'a day's pay for a day's work' school of thought.

Food for thought.

So Great foot based on your calculation what would you think a reasonable fee would be? I think 19-20 million plus all disbursements

by Guest Sun 27 Jan 2013, 20:57

At that rate I just need to work for 4 hours to earn my 3 years of retro.

by Guest Sun 27 Jan 2013, 20:48

Just want the veteran not to take a 50%-60% hit ! They are the needy ones I would suggest their quality of life suffers greatly.

I am sure the firm deserves ample and Judge Barnes will follow the law and what approved will be fair and legal. Fingers crossed!

by K9 Sun 27 Jan 2013, 20:47

@joanofarc
To get to speak to the Court on the 14th of February, you have to send an email to the firm with your intentions to let them know and they will schedule it.

The best is to arrived prepared, read your text and then give it to the Court, if you are French speaking, you can ask for a translator in case of need because the Judge is not bilingual.

It is a good thing to show up if you can,

Chears,

Patrick.

by Guest Sun 27 Jan 2013, 20:34

Not sure how to take that...

by pteadams2002 Sun 27 Jan 2013, 20:31

Yes. It all comes down to Math. Well done.

by Guest Sun 27 Jan 2013, 20:04

So, after having looked at the schedules of fees and of other class actions, here's what we've got:

From Schedule A and paragraph 49:

Total potential of legal fees, as by percentage:
$65,574,156

Total of disbursements, to date and projected:
$530,464.62

For a difference of:
$65,043,691.38

To be paid out to 20 legal professionals:
$3,252,184.60 each, over 6 years:
$542,030.76 each per year.
(As compared to a 7+yr employee in a large firm at an average of $110,000 a year, or in a small firm at $75,000 a year or more - from IvyGlobal website, Maritime Canada salaries)

Or, paid out over 7200+ hours of work, let's round it up to 7500, cuz business is not over yet:
$8,672.49 per hour invested.
(As compared to an average of $326/hr in 2011 - from Canadian Lawyer website survey)

Now let's look at Schedule C - Other Class Actions for Comparison

Average fees as a percentage of recovery of all suits listed:
22.51%

Average fees as a percentage of suits similar to ours, of which there are only three (I used in excess of $500,000,000 as qualification):
4.25%

The average fees as a percentage results listed in Schedule C are skewed by the fact that a majority of the cases resulted in relatively small awards, and therefore the fees were proportionally larger when compared with the actual awards.

Of the fees in the suits that were comparable to ours, the fees for the $1,900,000,000 Residential School suit were the highest at $85,000,000, so very nearly half of what we are expecting to pay, when all sums are considered.
Or three quarters for Tainted Blood 1, or roughly a third for Tainted Blood II.

I feel that the percentage of fees as presented would be appropriate if, in fact, there was only representation of the original estimated numbers of affected. But given the light of day, there are alot more affected, which leads to a commensurate increase in payout on the government's part, but does not necessarily need to be reflected in maintaining the original estimate for fees. Further, I stick to my guns in regards to my opined thought that the lawyers did not work any harder for the $300k guy or any less for the $10k guy, work was completed for each member equally.

I'm not sure where I am going with this, but I'm sure the Judge will take all of this into consideration.

And, so what if the lawyers wouldn't have been paid if we didn't win, does that give them the right to ask for more just in case there was a big pay off?
I'm not buying the whole 'risk' thing, I'll follow the 'a day's pay for a day's work' school of thought.

Food for thought.

by Guest Sun 27 Jan 2013, 19:32

How does a person get to speak at the court?

by Guest Sun 27 Jan 2013, 19:21

bigrex wrote:I don't think that proving that the class is deserving of this special consideration will be very hard. Did the GoC unnecessarily prolong the lawsuit? Yes, by forcing us to go all the way to the Supreme Court just to get class certification. Did they act in bad faith? Yes, they continued to clawback PA pensions from class members, even after the Courts had deemed it illegal. Will the winning party be unfairly harmed if forced to pay costs? Yes, between legal fees, disbursements, taxes, and tax penalties, some class members are losing upwards to 60% of their individual awards, where as we would have only lost 15-20% for taxes if we had received the money when we were supposed to.

100% agree! For me the 14th-15th of Feb 2013 will be a disappointment if the typical veterans looses 60% it just isn't fair. Many will say its better than nothing and they are right. Just do not call 40-50 cents on the dollar a win for veterans. The Winners are the McInnes Cooper and the Federal Government. Call a Spade a Spade!

by Guest Sun 27 Jan 2013, 19:14

I think the GoC learned a painful lesson in the PSAC pay equity settlement of 3.6 Billion and are putting the lessons learned screws to us. This QRLSP is going to be a major pain.

http://chrt-tcdp.gc.ca/aspinc/search/vhtml-eng.asp?doid=1008&lg=_e&isruling=0#1001758

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