Will SISIP follow VAC's 15% increase to the ELB?

Do you have PIA Vet1234?

Bruce, SISIP is the first payer, so if you get SISIP, your ELB payment is reduced to zero, not the other way around. What lawnboy is advocating for is that a member who is injured while on duty, should receive 90% of their military pay from SISIP, AND 90% of military pay from ELB, for a total of 180%, plus receive CPP(D), CF pension, VAC disability pension, PIA and PIAS, among other benefits

So a 100% disabled Veteran, with a Military salary of $5000/mo with 10 yrs of service, could get

$4500 from SISIP with no deductions,
$4500 from ELB with no deductions,
$1000 for a CF pension,
approx $1000 for CPP(D),
$2700 for PA pension (plus additional monies for dependants),
$1775 max for PIA,
$1088 PIAS
$1783 grade 1 Attendance allowance

For a total of $18346/ mo

As incredible as that would be for Veterans, no government is ever going to pay a Veteran almost 4x the amount of their military salary following an injury. I think that we would have a better shot at convincing the government to make the NVC benefits tax free, putting more in our pockets, without breaking the bank.

I have had 75% of my release pay for 7 years... no tours, field or jump pay. No promotions nothing. A career impact factor would be a huge deal. In definitely hurting from the system.

I applied and was approved for ELB but was told I will receive no payment as I was already in receipt of LTD SISIP.

Does that answer your question Bruce?

As for Steelgunners' post, I think it is brutal living paycheque to paycheque while injured. Especially when it isn't divided into mid and end of months pay. It can make things fairly tight.

amen Steelgunner

So, how did the Army let the government change in mid stream. I joined with a thought I would get a penision, If I got injured. Now I see i got injuried in the wrong year.  Now, I remember those boring long lectures in Gagetown and was wondering what the heck is this about, they said straight up its a better system.  What a mistake, that's why I don't trust generals in positions such as Veterans Affairs.  They have the big pay, don't no what it's like to live month to month waiting for the deposit.

LawnBoy

You've made me curious. If someone is in receipt of ELB and therefore their SISIP is cancelled out, where does the SISIP payment end up? Back in the hands of Manulife?

I can see the benefit to the taxpayers if SISIP cancels out ELB, but not the other way around.

On a side note I understood almost everything you said above, I think lol.

Steelgunner we need 2 systems:

1. SISIP for off duty only injuries or illness;

2. SISIP for on duty injury + DA + ELB + PIA + PIAS as SISIP is bought with paying the premiums; ELB is bought with injury in service & (maybe, the right to sue); DA, ditto; PIA, ditto.

Think of it like this: SISIP + pension was OK so SISIP + NVC is OK as the NVC replaced the pension.

The NVC replacement of the pension was a trasparent attempt to get around paying both pension + SISIP imo. Nothing more. That solved half of the problem. SISIP + pension is impossible with no pension!

However, that ignores the principle that you should get what you pay for. If SISIP is deducted from ELB, that meant you paid the SISIP LTD premiums for NOTHING. If ELB is deducted from SISIP, you gave up the right to sue for NOTHING!

This all comes back to the Bradburn Rule, a law that has been in place since 1875. A person who buys insurance is entitled to get it in addition to damages for personal injury. Ratych SCC 1990 & Cunningham SCC 1994 restate Bradburn.

https://youtu.be/1cVGJMIg4Oc

I agree with you Steelgunner but the information is out there.

VAC even has a quiz to determine slinks benefits. Which I used several times to make sure that I had applied for everything I was entitled too.

Plus sites like this and army are helpful even if the latter is slightly inactive.

Lawnboy, total agree with that.

I am on SSIP LTD, injury SDA in Afghanistan.  I applied for ELB months ago, waiting to see what they do.  I did have my case manger call me, and asked what is up with you applying for ELB?  I told him if SSIP does not raise to 90% then I want to be transferred to ELB.  He understood my point and chuckled.

If ELB and SSIP is mirrored after each other they are just creating jobs for themselves.  When one is injured and released 3B there should be only one route to take for path of the member.  Why did they not talk about that in their 5 points.  The 5 points where like starting over and did not address the points needed to fix VAC.

SSIP is a gold mine for Manulife, they don't want to lose it.  Only plus is they will be more fair or least likely to kick you off their gravy train.

In regards to spouses not getting the correct info from VAC, well we don't either.   But the member can sign his rights to contact VAC to his spouse and they can navigate the system.  They always can use fourms like here to get to know the frustrating system.

2 systems = extra bullshit
2 types of Vets = unfair NVC

I really don't see the system fixing its self. The system was created to help Vets but is now the enemy.

Any injured in svc vet ought to be moved to ELB or SISIP needs to move to 90% too

https://www.change.org/p/harjit-sajjan-canada-move-cf-service-income-support-insurance-plan-reservists-to-veterans-affairs-now

I read it in the 2010 report

"Participation in the Rehabilitation Program opens the door to the Financial Benefits Program, which compensates for the economic impact a service-related injury has on the Veteran’s ability to earn income."

- Compensate means to pay in full for loss
- the Andrews SCC 1978 case says that it is not income which is lost but earnings capacity, a Capital asset.

http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/about-us/reports/departmental-audit-evaluation/2010-08-disability-pension-award/appendix-f

(ii) Length of working life: The capitalization of future earning capacity must be based not on the shortened life expectancy but rather on the expected working life span prior to the accident. It is the loss of the income-earning capacity which existed prior to the acci­dent for which the appellant must be compensated.

From Andrews SCC 1978

LawnBoy77777 wrote:The bottom line is that Earnings capacity Loss Benefit (ELB) is a Capital asset. I was just reading that in the 2010 VAC report. Yet they continue to tax it.

I have my doubts about ELB.
1. Is it insurance;
2. Is it indemnity insurance?
3. How much is held in the Actuarial reserves required by law for insurance? (I suspect none)
4. Is it non-indemnity & contributory insurance?
5. If it is non-indemnity, can they allege they can clawback other benefits?
6. If it is allowed to clawback, is the clawbacks limited to the same event type clawbacks as listed in Pension Act s. 25?
7. If clawbacks are allowed, shouldn't they be limited to 50% of the amount, as per Pension Act s. 26?
8. Can ELB claim the right to take the Pension Act pension when the pension is the senior Act, established in 1919 versus the NVC's 2006 inception date? (for the Toth case)
9. Can ELB claim past wages held in trust like the CF pension, as they are not income for the same period that the ELB is paid?

I think I know the answers to all of these. The inspirations I had just this evening were:

A. SISIP/ELB trys to appropriate the value of the right to sue by saying it will offset the value of the Tort awards, WCB & VAC pension (in the past);

B. As stated in a question above, I think ELB has no Actuarial Reserves established so it is NOT insurance. Even WCB has to establish Actuarial Reserves

Where does it say that ELB is a capital asset?

The bottom line is that Earnings capacity Loss Benefit (ELB) is a Capital asset. I was just reading that in the 2010 VAC report. Yet they continue to tax it.

I have my doubts about ELB.
1. Is it insurance;
2. Is it indemnity insurance?
3. How much is held in the Actuarial reserves required by law for insurance? (I suspect none)
4. Is it non-indemnity & contributory insurance?
5. If it is non-indemnity, can they allege they can clawback other benefits?
6. If it is allowed to clawback, is the clawbacks limited to the same event type clawbacks as listed in Pension Act s. 25?
7. If clawbacks are allowed, shouldn't they be limited to 50% of the amount, as per Pension Act s. 26?
8. Can ELB claim the right to take the Pension Act pension when the pension is the senior Act, established in 1919 versus the NVC's 2006 inception date? (for the Toth case)
9. Can ELB claim past wages held in trust like the CF pension, as they are not income for the same period that the ELB is paid?

I think I know the answers to all of these. The inspirations I had just this evening were:

A. SISIP/ELB trys to appropriate the value of the right to sue by saying it will offset the value of the Tort awards, WCB & VAC pension (in the past);

B. As stated in a question above, I think ELB has no Actuarial Reserves established so it is NOT insurance. Even WCB has to establish Actuarial Reserves

The thing is, the PA pensioners are entitled to basically the same types of benefits that the NVC Veterans are, even if they are not equal.

A moderately disabled can get;

Pension Act                                                      NVC

- 100% of their PA monthly Pension                     - 100% of their PA disability award
- 100% of employment earnings                          - 100% of employment earnings
- 100% of CF pension                                       - 100% of CF pension
- PIA                                                             - PIA
- short term ELB (minus Cf pension)                    - short term ELB (minus Cf pension)


A veteran who is severely disabled can get;

Pension Act                                                      NVC

- 100% of their PA monthly Pension                     - 100% of their PA disability award
- 100% of CF pension                                       - 100% of CF pension  
- CPP(D)                                                        - CPP(D)
- EIA, or PIA/PIAS                                            - PIA/PIAS
- EELB (minus CPP(D) and CF pension)                 - EELB (minus CPP(D) and CF pension)
- Attendance allowance                                    - FCRB
                                                                   - CIB


Sorry for the spacing, the text box doesn't work like a word program